Two rights make this wrong
The mechanical systems for the farmhouse construction project have turned into a bit of a nightmare. I have want to use a ground water closed loop geothermal system for heating and air conditioning. I also want to have radiant floor heating - to be more accurate, I feel I *need* radiant floor heating since I am building on a concrete slab and the floors will not be very cozy in winter time. Heating with radiant floor heating means a liquid transfer (water and antifreeze). While cooling is with air transfer. Thus, two systems.
Two systems means two big machines, two transfer systems (tubing in the floor and duct work in the ceiling), and one semi-complex integrated control unit. In short, $$$ + $$$ + $$ = “you’ve got to be kidding” / ROFS* / there must be another way. If it were not for the slab floor construction, I would revert to a forced hot air heating solution and then only have the one mechanical unit and duct work. I still have that as a last resort. So I now realize that while (a) radiant floor heating is good and (b) geothermal is good for heating and cooling; (a) + (b) is “not so good”.
It’s thrown a very large wrench into an otherwise manageable project. The major issue is one of “timing”. The first round of quotes for the solution were in the realm of a small house (i.e. the HVAC *for* the house would cost the equivalent *of* a house). However, to stay on schedule, there is not time to go out for re-bid. Given that I can’t accept any of the current bids, I do not have much choice - I will need to negotiate a change in the construction phases to accommodate the later than expected HVAC rough install (really the radiant floor heating tubing is the issue as it must go *in* the concrete).
I have my fingers crossed that the concrete slab pour can go after the steel building erection rather than before. The footers are already in so this may be a viable option. I really hope it is given I have no good alternatives short of hitting the lottery this weekend. (edit: Guess I had better play the lottery !)
* ROFS = roll on floor screaming (from shock and disbelief)
July 27th, 2008 at 19:26
We have radiant heat in (most of) our floors. I insisted since we dogs don’t even have the option of slippers and since we spent most of our time within a foot of the floor. We have the electric kind. Tamara says was a money thing - hydronic was out of our price range and electricity is cheap here. If you gotta choose between heated floors and a/c — go with the heated floors and skip the duct work. You can always do the fan thing in the summer, or sleep on the screen porch, or do what we dogs do, scoop out some dirt under a big shade tree for your lie downs and get true geo-cooling. (Of course I must admit, this time of year, I do rather like to spend time in the study since it has a bit of A/C).
July 27th, 2008 at 20:44
Hi Dawson - I’m barking for both heated floors and AC. With my ridiculously short snout, I don’t vent heat fast and I am all excited to come n from the upper 80’s and humid and stuffiness to the sound of cool air wafting from the vents. Those hot humid days are around for about 4 months. Massachusetts was easier because we’d get breaks in the heat throughout the summer. Down here, it just stays warm day and night. It’s tough enough having to all my training and playing early morning and evening but the farm won’t have a creek like we have here at the rental so it will be doubly hard to get cooled down. Of course smaller dogs, like me, get cold faster too so toasty floors sound scrumptious to !
I don’t know what dad pays for electricity but with all that yelling and fist pounding on the TV, I’m guessing our electric coop can’t keep the price reasonable forever.
July 27th, 2008 at 21:45
I see your point, Zen…we have a river to swim in and cool nights most of the time. Also, you don’t have our long legs to elevate you from the earth-hot. Cordy and I get a fair breeze underneath where it counts.
You’d best keep barkin for the A/C and get your carbon credits and extra biscuit money from elsewhere. But, girldog, don’t give up on those floors! We have heated beds for nightime but during the day, those floors mean the entire house is one perfect napzone for dogs. A dog must have designed ‘em.
July 29th, 2008 at 12:13
Hi guys. I can’t resist throwing in my two sniffs. I’d vote for conventional HVAC and rely on furniture, rugs and pillows for comfy lounging and sleeping. Even though I ask (demand?) many unreasonable things from my dad, I’d balk at asking for 5,000 square feet to be always warm so that I’d be comfortable anywhere I might want to plop down. Doesn’t sound very green to me.
July 29th, 2008 at 14:35
Hi Salchicha, my dad is pretty strict about crashing in the furniture. I get to join him on the “big chair” or the foot rest but everything else is off limits. Life in the big city is different than here in the county. Here, we expect lots of open space. If you always have to do your running in a circle, what fun is there in that ! We county dogs like to run and play and sleep most anywhere. I think if you had a taste of country life, you’d settle right it fine.
July 30th, 2008 at 18:45
We think our warm floors are very green (even though they are bamboo brown and slate tile grey) Since we got them, we have way more biscuits and cheese snacks all winter long. This has something to do with the electric bill being cut in one over five, I am told.
Not sure how to bark green about A/C…Zen makes a good argument for comfort, but did not mention green? Maybe if you stick one of those big chicken farm fans in the side of the house, it could suck all the warm air out and pull the cool air off the floors one or twice a day- like a horizontal whole house fan. Best tie Zen to something solid before turning it on….
July 30th, 2008 at 21:06
Yes, “cheap electric” is good and using less electric is good too. I heard my dad talking one day about geothermal efficiency and it sounds like it has that same “one over five” thing. The closed loop geothermal is safe for the environment and it will feed both the water to water heat that will circulate through the radiant floors and the water to air cooling so it should all be pretty and green - perhaps not as green as no heat or cooling but life would get pretty harsh during the cold of winter and the hot of summer.
As a matter of fact, the heat and humidity was so bad today, dad would not let me play outside for more than about 10 minutes at a time. We played indoors instead (but my dad calls the games we play ‘training’ .. he is funny that way).
I bet your bamboo floors are amazing. I miss “my” 720 sqft of bamboo in the big room of the old house. I’ve hear the new place will have even greener floors - something about designing and building for LEED certification targets.
I’ve seen those big chickens fans somewhere but they were not generating any cyclonic action … perhaps they should talk to Mr. Dyson the vacuum cleaner guy.
I’ve heard that keeping trees is good for the environment and improves something called the “carbon footprint” … I’m not sure exactly what that is but I think it might be the same as what I track in after playing in the mud flats.
I hope more people do what your mom and my dad are trying to do and use less energy and natural stuff. I hat the smell of all that stinky stuff that goes into the cars & trucks and gets delivered to the house for heat. I also like the taste of the local food we get rather than that plastic tasting stuff that comes in on those big trucks from places I never heard of. Every little bit helps.
August 1st, 2008 at 01:18
umm.. Zen…What is humidity?
I do not know humidity. Is that when it gets all steamy like when you boil crabs or go to Katrina? Do you also have those mosquitos that live in it and suck the blood out of a dog. (shudder). Is it true you have things called heartworm, ticks, poison snakes, possums with no lips, lyme disease, bugs that light up at night, and Purdue mutant chickens? And is it true you have no mountains or glaciers to play on? I think you are the poster dog for bravery. I will tell all the search and rescue dogs about you. We might bark a BraveZenPug song..
I DO know Carbon Pawprint! It is the reason we are trying to make a french fry oil fueled van for our Adventures!!! And we get our veggies and eggs from a CSA that uses horses and oxen and no tractors. And our cheese from the nice cows by the river. Oh I do like the things that make small carbon pawprints!! Except for those new lightbulbs. Hate those.
August 1st, 2008 at 06:25
Cool ! My dad has been talking to a guy who installs those things that would make his truck smell like french fries ! They are pretty neat. He said a number of the local restaurants would “hep” by saving their “nun hidro gen ate it” oil for us.
As for playing, I got to go to the mountains a couple of times - what a blast. But what is a “glacier” - is it one of those things my dad puts ice and tea into ? What kind of game do you play with them ?
We get our eggs from a friend a few miles away. He has about 20 chickens. Veggies are everywhere this time of year. Lots of people have gardens and sell their extras right from their front yard. Dad said he’ll try getting his hands dirty and plant a few things next spring in the side yard. He’s not too smart when it comes to keeping plants alive so I won’t hold my breath.
It sounds really fun where you are. Is it far ? Do you have lots of friends to play with ? My cousin Taffy is coming over this weekend to play. She is suppose to look like me but she is rounder. We have so much fun running and playing tug-o-toy, and we to chase the ball around the yard ! whew … I better go take a nap so I am all rested for when she gets here.
August 3rd, 2008 at 17:05
We usually have a garden. But this year those dogs with horns ate all the tomato plants. Dad says they must have needed the food more then he did since they don’t usually come so close to the house. Luke barks at them in the middle of the night but Dad just gets up and looks at them until they leave. At least the pears and apples and grapes are still there - but they are not ready to eat yet.
My dad is nice and keeps the house cool for us since we REALLY have bugs - skeeters, horse and deer flies, ticks, no-seeums. We get to sleep and hang out on ALL the furniture - even his bed when he gets up. Life ain’t bad and it definitely beats my first family!